Ashish Rajan: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to cloud security podcast. This is a shisha. I’ve got a special guest today. Jane Franklin. Jane, could you into your thoughts with the audience? Yeah. Hi 


Jane Frankland: Asheesh. Hi everyone. My name is Jane Franklins. I’m a cybersecurity entrepreneur speaker and bestselling author, and I work in cybersecurity and I mainly do a lot of work with leaders and also women. 


So. Right now solving a big problem around how to attract and retain women in cyber security, because I believe that a failure to attract and retain women in cybersecurity is making us all less safe. So I do a lot of work around female empowerment around that side, and then also helping leaders to actually create. 


Fantastic environments that are suitable for, for women and also for the men. So it’s so that we can perform to that highest standard. So 


Ashish Rajan: you do work as a size. I advise that as well. What does that roll into it 


Jane Frankland: entails? Yeah, so really it’s around leadership. So it’s creating environments that whereby you can attract [00:01:00] great team members. 


You can ensure that they are performing to the highest. Standards. And I know, so helping them to get that engagement in tunnels in that organizations. So typically what I’m seeing at the moment is I’m seeing a lot of focus on us kind of solving, not really the real problem. So we know that attacks are increasing. 


They are getting more intense and the quality of those attacks are developing. So we’ve got more awareness, a greater attack surface and things like that. So therefore, it’s really important that we do get the right types of people to come on board and work with us. But also that we get the buy-in from the stakeholders in internally in our organization. 


And so in order to do that, we need to be communicating effectively so that they understand exactly what it is that we do because invariably they don’t. And if they don’t understand what we do, then we can’t get buy-in. And right now we have this high challenge. I talk a lot about a high challenge. 


Low support environment. If I talk about lots of variations of that. [00:02:00] So high challenge, low support to low support, high challenge, and two, which is really why we want to 


Ashish Rajan: be perfect way to kind of talk about challenges that the sizer would have is cloud security important. 


Jane Frankland: Oh, yes, absolutely. So cloud cloud is the way to go. 


So we have to be using cloud. I mean, it’s, it’s just a no brainer. That is the way forward, you know, so yes. And it is about getting up to speed with, with cloud 


Ashish Rajan: security. As those have been buying a lot of security products. And security is logged at a clock as a cost function and selling cloud security to a board. 


When you already have a lot of on-prem stuff, which is talking specifically about hybrid environments, fair, big enterprises have a lot of history in data centers. Now with cloud they’re like, oh, move everything to cloud. But there are certain things which you just cannot move. So that’s fine. What are the, what do you see as a challenge for selling something like this or selling anything new? 


Because we were talking about cloud today, but could be something else. Well, 


Jane Frankland: you’ve got to have, you’ve got to have your facts. You’ve got to have your facts ready, ready for the board. So it’s just like, you’ve got to go in prepared. You’ve got to be talking the language of the board. So typically what [00:03:00] happens in my experience of talking to. 


Sizes and CSOs and dealing with them and supporting them as an advisor in one of my capacities is that they don’t actually get a lot of time with the board. So many of them aren’t. So many of them are actually reporting to the chief financial officer or maybe the chief information. Officer or even sometimes the CTO or the chief risk officer. 


So most of the time they’re getting very, very limited time with the board. So for them it’s mostly a case of actually selling those solutions or getting budget from that direct line manager, which is invariably the chief financial officer or the CIO, the chief information, or. So it it’s a case of having those facts, you know, having the information, having the data and being able to talk in the language of person that you’re invariably selling. 


Ashish Rajan: Oh, that’s an interesting one. Right? Cause I think a lot of people who look at the size as a C level thing and Martin may not be aware of what they really do, I guess. And it’s sort of people’s skill in more than that. Am I right in assuming that 


yes, 


Jane Frankland: absolutely. Yes. This is where I think we’re going wrong. 


[00:04:00] So we need to improve our people skills. We really need to bring the focus back down to the human aspect. And I know there’s a lot of work being done on the human side of things, but usually it’s it’s around training. So training users internally in the organizations, how to get up to speed with fishing and so forth. 


So that those, those human weaknesses. That we invariably do because we’re not, we’re not perfect. We’re human. So for me, it really is, is about really working more on the soft skills. Well, not working more, but actually getting more up to speed with the soft skills side of things. So things like leadership, things like communication, how, you know, I mentioned it right at the start. 


How do we attract the right sorts of people to our. To our teams, to our organization and then keep them, how can we sell training and also support systems to say HR who we’re working with because, you know, and I alluded to, to this [00:05:00] wrote about him in my book and, and the specific chapter on it was HR is holding us back, you know, because that’s what CSOs would always tell me. 


Recruiters would also tell me the same, same thing. Then I was dealing with a candidates out there who are looking for jobs at all levels. So particularly at the CSO that the size and you know, where the, the lens, the, the, the cycle to, to become employed was lengthy. So even now we have sizers, you know, out, you know, out of the job market and having been out of the job market for maybe eight or nine months and having to take. 


LOA, lower level roles because they just can’t find anything and they need to pay the bills. So this whole aspect of, you know, we’ve got a skill shortage isn’t necessarily completely accurate. That’s a lot of scaremongering that that is being done by the. 


Ashish Rajan: I’m bit curious. So when you say HR is blocking them, so HR is on letting the resumes go through. 


Jane Frankland: It’s well, sometimes so it depends how competent the HR function is, how much say the [00:06:00] hiring managers. It could be, the sizes are walking with them. So quite often they don’t have experience. They don’t have knowledge of what it is that we’re doing. That don’t. Sorry, the, the terminology and the language. 


So sometimes what’s happening is that they are looking for shortcuts. They’re looking for speed because, you know, speed is the currency of business. So they might be searching, doing key. What’s such as for cyber security and what they might be doing. They might be missing candidates. People who are applying, who have a lot of information, security skills. 


So I, I know that has gone on and it’s really simple, but again, if we know no this, then we can compensate as applicants, by making sure that we have both keywords in our resume resumes and seat and CVS from an HR perspective, you know, it’s very much a case of actually really getting them ideally. 


This is where it would come back to the size, you know, helping them to get up to speed so they can walk with us and we can work as a team and create those women’s scenarios. So they are meeting their KPIs, the key performance indicators. And so are we as, as [00:07:00] leaders building our teams and building these, these performance teams. 


So we can. A job of assessing the threat landscape and then reducing the risks or it’s great 


Ashish Rajan: being a say-so, but you’re not a great size of you don’t have a great team to support you get results. 


Jane Frankland: Yeah. So just like any leader, your skill is in is in attracting. Teams. So they can work down the hall and enjoy the experience and be happy and stay with you, and then go recommend, you know, the others come and work for you and say, as leaders what’s happening now is it’s not necessarily a case of almost like a command and control type of approach where you have a title and you’re working for a particular company and, and applicants are coming. 


Team members are coming because of the brand of your company. Applicants are more and more choosing to come and work for a leader, and then they will follow the leader wherever they go. As a, as a say-so it’s your job as a leader to make sure that you really are being, becoming the best leader that you can possibly be so that you attract your team and always are attracting the best, the best team and what gets round. 


So. That makes you quite [00:08:00] safe in your role, because you’re not only attracting the best opportunities in terms of the organizations and that want to hire you, but you’re also, you’ve also got your pipeline of people, team members who want to work with you and they’ll go wherever you go. You know? So for me, that’s really, it’s a missing link and it’s something that really isn’t being focused 


Ashish Rajan: on. 


Because we’ve been talking about sizes. I want to switch gear. I do someone listening in the audience and it’s from a clock security background or trying to get some work in cloud security, obviously. Yeah. I think one of the things that people talk about DCS recruitment has changed quite a bit or experience, but cloud itself is rainy and it’s hard to prove your experience. 


When the only experience you have is say a few of a few months contract role, and then next thing you know, you’re like, That’s what I got, but not many people are willingly going out themselves in line security in cloud for those people. If they want to be employed by a sizer, who’s a leader. What should they be doing to get attracted by, I guess, a leader who may be a size of, 


Jane Frankland: so, so they can invest in a, in a [00:09:00] course, cause we’ve got more courses that are coming up to do with cloud cloud security. 


And I think. It’s useful to do that because it takes a book. So coming back to the whole kind of recruitment and HR side of things, it can just satisfy them and tick a box. But one of the best there are two recommendations that I have. One is to actually demonstrate your knowledge of the technologies and environments. 


You’re dealing with now, you can do that by so many different ways. If you can, right. Then you can bloke about this. So that demonstrates your awareness and your knowledge of this. So don’t just prove it one way of doing that is by writing about it. If you’re not so great at writing, cause some people find it hard or they don’t know how to say. 


I looked at times, I’ll help people to do that through writing it. Blogs and things like that, but they can also, they could do that through doing exactly what we’re doing so they could create a podcast or they could create sound, or they could do videos or demos. And if they are feeling like they can’t do that because they’re an introvert, I would encourage them to actually banish that limiting. 


I’m an I’m an [00:10:00] introvert all into that means is that you get your energy from being away from people. And I know most of the, most of the influencers in the market are introverts. So being an introvert is not an excuse for either doing a podcast or writing or speaking at an event or getting on a panel or doing a video or anything like that. 


It really isn’t. So I would encourage. Those who are working with cloud security to really demonstrate their experience somehow. And I’ve just given you various ways that they can do that. The other way is through networking. So it’s build your network, you know, and you’ve got to get out there and you’ve got to start networking with people. 


You kind of blow. Or you can sponsor you into, into those jobs. You can vouch for you. So sponsoring is different from network. It is different from mentoring. So sponsoring is about people who, who are usually quite influential and they are finding new projects or jobs and making the recommendation and vouching on your. 


Yes, I’ve worked with this person has the skills, you [00:11:00] know, I’ve talked to them, I seen them walk, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So ideally you really want to be doing those things, 


Ashish Rajan: dub and conferences, talking to people over there and not just hanging out in the corner, I guess. 


Jane Frankland: Yeah, making self make. I mean, I talk a lot about visibility. 


I want to talk about visibility. It really means to actually means becoming visible so people can see you actually elevating your voice. So making sure that people can hear you, so your voice could be through, through the spoken word or it could be through the written word. So it’s really kind of making sure that you are totally. 


Totally visible. So people know about you. They can see you and they can hear where they can read your stuff. 


Ashish Rajan: I guess, both you and I kind of work on the space a bit on personal branding, and it’s a great way to switch into for people who are listening, whether you are cloud security or security in general, or you may not be a cloud security person at devil’s person, how important is personal? 


It’s 


Jane Frankland: massively important. So the way that we work, the way that we work is changing. So, and I love that. I’m excited about it. I mean, you know, if I think 10, I was going to say 10 years ago, remote [00:12:00] working wasn’t as common as, as it was 10 years ago. When I had my penetration testing company, I owned the penetration testing, built one of the earliest ones in the world, and I ended up for 16 years. 


But when I have my penetration testing company, one of the first employees that we had, we were a global organization was in Australia. So he wa yeah, he worked out of Australia. He still wants it in Australia, and he’s an Australian citizen now, but he moved back to Australia with his, with his wife and started a family. 


And so for me, it was very much a case of You can do these things. We know you’re a great Walker. We trust you. Let’s do this and see how it works today. That’s much more common and so is really more project-based work. So we have becoming much more project based and we are also becoming much more entrepreneurial in the way that we approach work and find work, and also on the flip side of things. 


So what, we’re, what we’re wanting to see more and more as leaders, as employers, as hiring managers is more of the entrepreneurial spirit. Yes. We need people to be much more proactive in the way that they are dealing [00:13:00] with these things. And so coming back to what I said a few minutes ago, with making yourself more visible, personal branding is a way for you to do this. 


So it means that you can communicate what it is that you do through an effective pitch, whether that’s a one minute pitch, an elevator pitch, and whether it’s a three minute or five minute you need to be able to communicate what it is that you do to a variety of different audiences. Kids, you know, in school or the playground, or if you’re walking out the gym or in a bar, the more people that know about what it is that we do the better. 


And then obviously when you’re going for a job where you’re networking, then you need to be able to communicate what it is that you do in an effective manner. So you get that buy-in from. Those potential hiring managers will sponsors, and then you need to be able to be making yourself visible and demonstrating your worth because demonstrating and what doesn’t really come from qualifications that takes the box and gets you through to the next level in terms of the job, you know, potential hire. 


Ashish Rajan: Is it different if the person is a woman instead of a man. 


Yes, 


Jane Frankland: it is different. [00:14:00] I would love to say that it’s not different, but you know, there are, there are biases out there. So women are penalized and discriminated against because of the fact that they, they are a woman. So. We will have bias biases. And if you want to go and find out the extent of your biases, you can go and take a test. 


It’s run by Harvard. It’s online. It’s called the implicit association test. And it does it not, not just for things like gender, but it does. It does it for other things as well. Women are penalized more because they are women and often, often. That nobody realizes this is that because it’s unconscious, we don’t realize that we’re doing it. 


So as women we were penalized and, and then there’s the kind of, it’s not a role, but it, usually women have to work twice as hard or 10 times as hard, you know, to get the same result as, 


Ashish Rajan: as a man. Back then they would have to say for this numbers, do YouTube videos, Twitter. Well, yeah, well, no. 


Jane Frankland: So from a personal branding perspective, this is where it really can help women actually, because it [00:15:00] enables women to be judged more on their own, on their ability. 


And so by demonstrating their way through things like blogging or podcasting, they’re able to really show that. So it does enable them to get more visibility and to break down some of those barriers. That might be causing them trouble conventionally. So typically what happens with women is they get on and they’re doing their job and they’re doing a really good job, but because they’re not seen and not hard, not as many people know know about them. 


And so they tend to be judged more on why they are 


Ashish Rajan: at the moment or it isn’t where they are in dental. 


Jane Frankland: And where they are in terms of that career. So that the role that they are, the role that they are fulfilling. So unless they are really kind of promoting themselves in an authentic manner, because it’s not just the case of getting on social media and tweeting or posting or whatever, and being a Mimi. 


Look at me. It’s really not about that. It’s about demonstrating your worth. So demonstrating your thought leadership. And, you know, like I said, you can do that by writing about it, or by speaking about it or by doing podcasts or any, [00:16:00] anything like that, we’ll record a session. So you can prepare in advance. 


And it’s not a case of being put in the hot seat all the time. There’s so many ways that you, 


Ashish Rajan: yeah. And so once you started doing it and move forward, And I guess to your point about personal branding for women being different is some of my audience members and also startup founders as well. So if they want to hire a women and attract women, cause I guess clearly you mentioned cybersecurity is going to have lack of re I guess people. 


And we would also have a, I guess, a lack of gender diversity as well. So there’s a, there’s almost like a multitude of problems. So as an entrepreneur, listening to this, what would you say. To attract more female to their workplace. 


Jane Frankland: So, well, they’ve got to do several things. They have to build a personal brand, so they have to get visible. 


They do. Absolutely. So it’s very much the way that we build businesses nowadays is very much built on the company brand and the personal brand, but people buy people much more than. They do necessarily a startup brand. So you’ve got to be able to communicate what it is that you do. So be able to pitch you need to be able to communicate your vision. 


You know, what’s my [00:17:00] vision for my it’s not just my, my, my company. What’s my vision for what I’m doing. What is my, why? Why am I doing it? So people have to believe your why, and you have to get that buy-in that connection from, from that. And you have to be able to communicate your mission as. And your values. 


So by doing those four things that I’ve just mentioned has I have a vision statement, have a mission statement, have your value statements, have your, why be able to communicate these and live them truly live them. So these aren’t just literally. Statements that you have on a piece of paper or on posters that are plastered around your company or on your websites and things like that, you really live them and people will talk about how you’re living them and you all will be demonstrating every single touch point, whether that is online, offline these 


Ashish Rajan: things, the point about personal branding as well, because that would reflect your personal branding in terms of what are you doing? 


Jane Frankland: Yeah. So as an individual, as a leader, when you’re doing these things, you get that buy-in, then you create the followings. Then you create that [00:18:00] buzz around what it is that you’re doing. And yet you’ll build your business. Anyway, you’ll build awareness about what, what services or products that you’re selling, but you’ll also be attracting the right caliber of person to, to your company. 


And see if we’re, if we’re looking at say attracting more. Diverse candidates, particularly gender. Then you can look at your communication. So are you making sure that your communication is more gender neutral and you’re using more gender neutral language? Or if you did want to. Attract more women, maybe you all using more female, our insights. 


It’s a language for me, I’m much more, I’m much more an advocate of using gen being gender neutral and attracting the right candidate, the right person for your company. And I very strongly believe that when you do do that, then you attract more. T to your company. It’s a different if you’re 


Ashish Rajan: an enterprise, because I guess enterprise already has a predefined value company, value company, vision, where they’re going, it’s all different. 


Jane Frankland: It’s no different at all. You have to, you have to [00:19:00] make sure that it aligns to that. So what you would have is you would have say your enterprise, your, your organization’s mission statement, value statement in all of that. You would have your own as a leader and you will be building your team based on that. 


And then you would have your teams. So that you, as a team can, can do this. And when you can do this collectively and it all aligns, you’ve got that congruence and it’s really, really powerful. So, and it’s consistent as well. So, you know, when you’re going out to, to others outside, whether it is as to you as the team or whether it is as individuals that you all have the same message. 


You have to live it, you have to live it and you have to create these psychologically safe environments. And whereby your team feels safe to make mistakes, to fail, which is, is very hard because of what we do. You have to be able to do that. They have to, the team have to feel safe and secure and stretched [00:20:00] and supported and challenged because they can’t just feel safe and supported because if they feel safe and supported, then they won’t and they don’t have the psychological safety. 


Then they. Move and stretch themselves and innovate or suggest, or even feel safe to, to make mistakes and in a world where we have so much change coming out as with industry 4.0 and so much change. And we’ve not really seen the speed of change that is coming at us, the teams have to feel safe in order to do that. 


Simply because they’re not going to be seeing the types of things that are coming at us. So they have to, as leaders create those, those environs. 


Ashish Rajan: Oh, and you mentioned industry four window warning industry four window who don’t know. 


Jane Frankland: Yeah. Well, it’s the fourth industrial revolution. So it’s the next wave of technology and change that is coming at us. 


Oh, 


Ashish Rajan: right. Okay. How we would like, and to your point about everyone’s turning an entrepreneur. 


Jane Frankland: Yeah. Everyone’s yeah. The way that we work is changing, but we’ve got different technologies come coming out to, so we have the internet of things, the internet of everything, we have more connectivity, we’ve [00:21:00] got, you know, more people coming online. 


I think we’ve got right now about half the world’s population are online, whereas in the next 10 years, if not less, We’re going to have about 90% of the world’s population coming online. So I think that’s roundabout 7.5 billion people. So it’s, it’s going to be, I’m, I’m really excited. I’m excited for it. 


I’m aware of the challenges and the dangers and what that might mean. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, so I, I, but I am excited for that, but we have to do the more, the more we know this is more information that we have, the more aware. That we have both us as, as users and walk insecurity and does, as people walking in these environments, the easier it is going to be for us. 


And the more able we’re going to be to be able to deal with the changes that are coming at us. I’m very excited about. I’m 


Ashish Rajan: excited about being a social media nerd myself. I’m excited about so many people coming online, which means a lot of people who are working on the personal brand would have a [00:22:00] lot more eyes on their profiles. 


We’ll have a lot of people visiting their YouTube pages, Twitter pages. We spoke to our personal branding, I guess personal branding is mainly on social media. 


Jane Frankland: But it’s not, it’s not on social media. That’s the thing. I mean, that’s the perception is that it is, and it can be if you want it to be, but you pass it up brand is as much off, off media as it is on. 


So if you really want to scale it, Yeah. Scale the visibility and, and your voice then yes. By all means you really need to be doing on social media, but you’ve really got to work offline as well. So that’s 


Ashish Rajan: why. Absolutely. Yeah, 


Jane Frankland: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it’s the types of things that you can do off social media in terms of building your brand on things like the networking you can do. 


You can do, you can do speaking at events or getting on panels. You can do, you can create Internally at your organization, or you can go off and do voluntary work outside of your organization, or it could link back, you know, it could be a combination, but it’s very much about the two. So it’s not just purely on online. 


It’s very much online and offline, but if [00:23:00] you really want to get the scale, then you’ve got to do. 


Ashish Rajan: Oh, that the point we were talking about earlier, where I’m networking with attending meetups. If you’re a speaker to meet up, you obviously attract people towards you. Don’t be scared. I think people would just have questions, follow up questions on the amazing work you would have done something that made you scared. 


Like, oh my God, there’s so many people coming to. Yeah, 


Jane Frankland: absolutely. And it’s, I think it’s knowing how to deal with that. You know, it’s, it’s simple things like say networking, how do I, how do I approach someone? You know, how do I approach someone at a meeting? How do I approach them? What are the first ones that I say, what is the, you know, it’s things like that, or how do I approach it from a body language perspective? 


Because that communicates so much, I mean, it’s, we haven’t even really talked about that, but there are, there are ways that you can approach. People that help you to actually fit in. Yeah. See, when I teach personal branding, it’s the personal branding that I’ve got. Doesn’t really concentrate so much on what the language, if I’m doing mentoring, if I’m doing coaching, then, then I do go, go into that. 


And on some calls, if I’m [00:24:00] doing live calls and things like that, then yes I do. But you’ve really got to look at how you are presenting a soggy. Thinking about it, you have turned a voice even, but your body posture is really, really important. It really is massively important because people make judgments on you within the first five seconds. 


So you’ve got to be increasing your chances of actually making a good first impression. And then also, also going easy on yourself and realizing that actually practice makes perfect, you know, the first time I do something, it may not be the best. It won’t ever be the best. So the more you do the better, you’re gonna get it, but you do have to put the in, so you do have to learn how do I do these, these things? 


And it is really like any kind of skill, and these are skills that we’re talking about. And when he’s born, being able to, to not truly kind of do these things, we all learn from, from someone or something. And thankfully the, the age that we’re living out, we’ve got so much resource around us, you know, we’re very blessed. 


Ashish Rajan: Yeah, and I, I think I keep I, I kind of tell people a milestone is even if you get to talk to [00:25:00] one person, no matter how big the conference is or how big the meetup is, that is one genuine connection you have created. It inspected all the 9 99 people you would miss doesn’t matter. Those genuine, genuine connection will last you a long way. 


But, but 


Jane Frankland: that’s it, but you’ve just got hit, hit the nail on the head. It’s a genuine connection. So you have to, it’s not just a case of, of networking. You’ve got to develop those relationships. So, and they’ve got to be genuine. It’s just like when I, when I I’m very big on, on, on relationships and building the relationships. 


Relationships and I care genuinely about people and I’m really interested in, in people showing interest. So say when you are networking approach things from a genuine interest perspective, and when you do do that, then you listen better and listening is really important, you know, as opposed to coming at it from a Mimi perspective. 


So if you go to a networking event with the objective of I’m going to find my next employer or something, That’s great to have the objective and I encourage people to do that, but I also encourage people to approach it from the perspective of the interested, because when you’re [00:26:00] interested in other people, they will be interested in. 


Develop those relationships. So don’t just, don’t just leave it at that one networking event, stay in contact, but it is very much approaching it from the perspective of understand them showing interest in them. And, and that will return to evidence to you, but be genuine with it. You know, show, show who you are, be authentic, be interested. 


Ashish Rajan: And I guess this brings me to the next point about, we were talking about scaling, which we spoke, where they personal running courses as well. Yeah. Just don’t touch on the scaling part for using social media. Where should people be creating content then? I guess nowadays there’s so many social media platforms. 


I’m pretty sure security gets. 


Jane Frankland: Absolutely. And that is such a valid point that you’ve made. So really you’ve got again, when I teach this, it really is about not saying do it on this platform doing on that platform. It really is about looking at what your objective is. And then, and then looking at well, looking at your, your target audience. 


So in line with your objectives, so well, where is your target audience [00:27:00] hanging out? So most of the time for us, it’s going to be on LinkedIn. Most likely going to be on Twitter as well. And I’m a big fan of using the two platforms together, but it could be on, could be on YouTube. It could be on Instagram. 


Instagram is actually doing really well as a platform and that there are lots of security. Yeah, absolutely. I didn’t think that actually if a good year, a year or a good year, if not two years ago, cause I was just playing on Instagram, like funny out, you know, what it would do. Join it, I didn’t think the information security professionals cyber security people will be on that, but they are on that. 


And it’s, it’s interesting, but you can do searches and find out. So it’s really looking at, you know, what your objective is establishing, what that is, and really establishing who your target audience is. And most of the time, people don’t really understand, in depth who they’re talking about. Is including whether they’re hanging out, they just simply kind of go, okay, right, fine. 


I’m going to be on LinkedIn. I’m going to play on LinkedIn. I’m going to use us as my network, but you really have to be approaching these things. As, as a test, I was a true [00:28:00] engineer and and testing all the time. So not taking anything. And this is what I feel we don’t do. Well. We, we consume and we accept. 


And I’m so surprised about this. In a tank in a tech environment. And as technologists, as engineers, as developers, What do you Halloween not testing more? Why w why are we so accepting of things, go and test and, and be a true engineer and, and test, you know, see what works and, and approach these things with an open mind and an engineer’s mind, a testing mind, find out what works for you and stop being. 


Don’t be complacent with it. Don’t be saying. Test test, test 


Ashish Rajan: and there’s analytics as well. Right. For people to find out that they’re doing something that they’re doing is right or not think of yourself. You have like a Facebook page, a LinkedIn page eight. 


Jane Frankland: I have. Yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m on pretty much 


Ashish Rajan: part of your personal branding as well. 


They 


Jane Frankland: are, but some things, some things, I, some things I use more,[00:29:00] pretty much every, every platform I’m testing. So 


Ashish Rajan: yeah, 


Jane Frankland: exactly. I testing and doing that. So when we get a new platform out yeah. And sometimes I just use it. I usually start off using it for my own consumption. So just having a bit of fun and using it personally, and then I might bring in some, some business and see how it, how it performs. 


So a lot of the social media platforms, you know, I I’m on and I, I approached it like that. The ones I find that work for me LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, and, and Instagram. Those are my, those are my main platforms and, and I have a blog, you know, I have websites and some people in clinic they’ll gang up looking platform in, in that mix. 


But those, those are my main, main platform. It’s like this again, not testing, but almost like an entrepreneurial mindset. So the innovation and watching be attentive. You’ve got to be attentive. If you’re a leader, you’ve got to be attentive to what’s going on around you, your team, your stakeholders, the market. 


But you’ve also got to be [00:30:00] like that as, as a contributor, as, as an employee or as a contractor or as a consultant or as a stylist, you really do pay attention. And also this whole kind of issue of, well, I’m not going to go on, I’m not going to go on, on Facebook because the privacy asks aspect and this no, that’s, that’s your choice. 


Yeah. 


Ashish Rajan: I was going to ask that as well, because as a cyber security person, I’m pretty sure we will ask you that. Oh, Jane, why you on these social media, black phone, don’t, you know, that they’re sucking all your data, like, or making a digital profile for you, and what’s your response to that? 


Jane Frankland: My, my view is I’ve assessed the risks and I’m happy to piss you. 


Based on the risk assessment, I performed, there were loads of people like me influences, technical consultants who hang, you know, who hang about on these platforms. You know, it’s, you’ve got it. It’s your. No, it’s it’s, we’re not all carbon copies, you know, it’s just like, you’ve got to lock these things down. 


You’ve got to accept the times and you’ve got to be prepared to [00:31:00] deal with, you know, the consequences. So, and that’s a personal, you know, th this is, this is me as an influencer, as a personality, as a business, you’ve got to look at them and, and that’s, that’s personal risk assessment. If you’re not comfortable with that, then don’t do it. 


No one’s making you. But just to categorically say no, without doing that, I think. You know, it’s, it’s your call, but I, I not done that. So I’ve, I’ve looked at it and assess the risk and yeah, 


Ashish Rajan: it’s an interesting one. Right? Cause that’s kind of what I feel like what that’s, what happened with cloud initially when people came up, I don’t want to spirit and say, I just want to say no to it. 


That’s kind of what happened with cloud initially. 


Jane Frankland: You know, it’s time to celebrate for goodness sake, you know, and again, this is something that I see this acceptance or this waiting for permission or put for permission, they’re not engaging, you know, one’s brain and you’ve call a brain, just use it, you know, so stop following, you know, wake up, wake up. 


You know, stop waiting for permission, engage your brain, approach things open-mindedly and approach things as an engineer or as a, as a tester, you know, and [00:32:00] fundamentally engage your 


Ashish Rajan: brain. Is that cybersecurity influence as a thing? And what did they do? 


Jane Frankland: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, an influencer is just someone who gets somebody else to take action. 


So it just means that the market is listening to, to them and they can, they can get people to take action on whatever it is that they want them to do. Whether it’s to, you know, if you’re writing a blog, whether it’s to comment on a blog or to like something or to 


Ashish Rajan: also, this could be used as a inference. 


I think. So say, for example, you said earlier about personal branding using a blog, LinkedIn posts and videos and all that, that people can as an, every, anyone who’s listening right now, it just starts today doing blogs to begin with the right sort of support cast. Can they just, is it like a sign up or two companies reach out or. 


Jane Frankland: No it’s, I mean, there are, there are influenced I mean, so what happens is no one really, I’ve never met anyone who’s sat out and this wasn’t something that I did intentionally, you know, I set out to help. So my job is just to help people and, you know, I’ve got a business, so it’s [00:33:00] just like, there’s a transaction attached to that. 


So you get these win-win scenarios. It’s just like, there’s the value exchange. But for me, it was very much. I going out to the market to help people and to share my thought leadership knowledge and to get perspectives on things and to start a discussion, because if we’re talking about marketing, marketing is just a conversation, it’s a discussion. 


So, so for me, that’s what, what I did. I went out to do that. I, I got people to take action, you know, encourage that because I wanted to find out what they were thinking that gave me more insight into them. So that meant that I could serve them better. So for me, it was all about serving and helping. 


So. So that’s how I did it. So I had lots of cool calls to action that were mostly comment on my blog or, or maybe come and join this webinar or masterclass or download this document or this guide on whatever it is. So lots of things like that. And because my. My stuff for want of a better word. My content was mostly well, well received. 


I got a lot of action on it. A lot of comments, a lot of,[00:34:00] it was great conversations that were going on around it, then that kind of meant that more people could see the work that I was doing. And then what happens is companies out there start to monitor. People who have got the ear of the market. 


So you have some agencies out that, that have tools that are assessing influences. You have companies out there that he will also work with influencers, because say, if we’re talking about influencer marketing, this is a slightly new way of doing business, but they will, they like celebrities. Who’ve got celebrities who are out there, marketing products, you know, so yeah. 


Beer roll or shampoo or facial creams or holidays or whatever it is, you know? Yeah. I know they do that. That’s happening in every single micro nation. Security is a micro-niche. So we have that now going on in insecurity. So you have companies whether they are marketing agencies or whether they are companies like Microsoft or IBM or verifies another company that did [00:35:00] this recently, I worked with them on a campaign, you know, they’re out there looking at who has got the attention of the market, who can get eyes on that brown. 


You see, who can help to move that the market forward and then leveraging off of them just in the same way that a celebrity or personality or a school as person would be used by an appetizer. So that’s, what’s going on in, in our market, in our micro-niche and in others, you know, outside of it. So all, all you need to do is just, I would encourage people not to set out to, you know, be an influencer because I think that’s really ego-driven. 


I would always encourage people to go out and to serve and to help. 


Ashish Rajan: Not 


Jane Frankland: that may happen naturally, you know, it might not. But, for me, I don’t get consumed around the whole kind of influence of thing. I just, what I’m consumed about is helping in solving in the best way that I can. Invariably, what has happened, you know, I’ve won lots of awards, you know, I’m used as a, I’m also judged as well. 


So I’m a judge for many awards [00:36:00] globally, about six or seven awards globally. So this is what this, 


Ashish Rajan: I feel like personal branding has a few levels. And I feel like what we were talking about earlier is kind of like the entry level, where you start writing the blogs, you start creating content, start serving people. 


And as you kind of help more people just by the volume of scale word, More than technology. It’s almost like this is to your point about the more offline and online. So if you’re nice to people in general, when you meet them, they will recommend you as well. So I feel like that’s the kind of like different stages. 


And I feel influenced that would be like, I don’t know, level three or something, but basically people want to start off. They don’t have to instantly think about influencer programs. It started very basic, as you mentioned earlier, 


Jane Frankland: Yeah, share your stuff, gets eyes on, on you. So go out to help know why you’re doing this because you’ve got to know why, because this is an exchange of time and time is he’s one of the few resources that you can ever get back, you know, fortunately until there’s a time machine that’s been created, we can’t get time back. 


So time in a house. 


Ashish Rajan: It’s an interesting one as well. Cause I thought that the people that I’ve spoken to, [00:37:00] they talk about, they can’t share a lot of information because I guess working for the blue team also means, and this kind of like a really good segue into the second second in the second segment, we, we kind of go into like a second offense defense kind of a thing. 


They have more tactical solution for what we do right now, to your point about obvious work or personal branding for people who are listening and starting off. What do you see as a challenge and being an introvert person yourself? What was the biggest challenge for you? And as a woman is also an introvert, what do they 


Jane Frankland: do? 


You need a support system around you? So, and that could be an accountability buddy. That’s probably one of the easiest ways or, or a mentor, you know, that I’m developing a mentoring platform next year and it it’s just going to be for women. At this stage, but it really is about having that support system around you, because it’s so easy to, to not go ahead with these things or to talk your way out of it, or to not find the time or to listen to those limiting beliefs that we all have, or are not good enough. 


No one wants to read it. And I’ve heard probably every single type of limiting [00:38:00] belief from the most incredible, amazing. People out that you know, many of, many of them, I mean, I can think of one in Australia, the most amazing SISA say-so that I know. And he’s just like, no one would want to read my blogs and it’s just like, you are crazy. 


You are just amazing. Everyone would want to read your blogs. And so, you know, when he’s, when he did actually start doing this, cause I up a personal branding program with him and probably about 25 25 CSOs size. Right. Yeah. And aspiring sizes as well. So it was great. But you know, he was very much like no one would want to read it, you know, who am I, all of those types of things, you know, these are classic limiting beliefs that we all have, and it is that reference point. 


So it can be shed shed as well. So that’s why. Useful to do, having that support system around you. And sometimes it is a case of getting it checked, you know? So it might be that uncomfortable feeling of it’s not good enough, you know, you know, am I right? Am I rising? Where am I, what I’m saying? Or speaking about talking about sound bites and we’ll video and you see it rubbish, you know, isn’t good enough. 


Again, a classic one, get it checked by someone and [00:39:00] make sure I did he, that it’s, it’s someone who, whose opinion you, you value, you know, and you can also get this across multiple people as well. Is this good enough? And it just has to be good enough. And with. You know, all of these things, again, the timescales, the lifecycle, it is there, and it’s always there, but if it’s YouTube, it can be taken down. 


You know, it’s, if it’s, if it’s a log, you can always change it. You know, you can edit it and things like that. So 


Ashish Rajan: basically 


Jane Frankland: it’s not, it’s not the end of the world, but I would encourage people when they’re starting out to have that safety net, a comfort blanket and go and get it checked by someone because that will really help and then make that commitment, you know? 


Really important. So decide what platform choose one platform and try and use a platform that you’re comfortable with. So it’s not so much of a stretch for you. Choose one platform and choose one medium. So is it writing, is it soundbites? Is it videos to choose that and, and then commit to a consistent amount. 


So are you going [00:40:00] to do it weekly? You’re going to do it monthly. Are you going to. Y, you know quarterly, but decide and make sure that you commit to that and see it through. And then B B be prepared, you know, be prepared for how that’s going to go. 


Ashish Rajan: I think that I just want to add, this is something that I personally do and I’m not sure what you do it yourself as well, but if I refer to write something or does a video. 


Want me to try and share at, for different social groups as well. And it’s to your point earlier where we’ve been documented, serving other people, if you’re selling value to people, and if it’s not me, me, me or the other people actually engage with it, they will be like, and to your point about who’s read my blog. 


Thousands of people will because all they want, everyone just wants. 


Jane Frankland: They do, but they also want connection. So it’s just like, they they’re usually trying to solve a problem. So, you know, either it’s a case of how do I solve this problem or how do I, how do I connect with someone who I resonate with? 


Usually they want to feel that connection. So it’s, you know, today’s successful blogs. Aren’t just about say, if we’re talking about [00:41:00] blogging, you know, writing in a boring business, like. You know, sterile, that’s the, what I want use. If you really want to get that connection and pull people towards you, you know, for whatever reason, whether you want to be hired by a company or whether you want to hire it, teams say, or you’re, you know, you want to showcase your products and services. 


You’ve, you’ve really got to be writing and in a different way, a much more authentic, engaging, connecting manner, as opposed to just stare up. Writing, that’s not engaging. It’s boring. We can get that anywhere, save that for your gracious, for your brochures. But if you’re, if you’re writing, but be it yeah. 


Pass and be a human you are. And, and, and that, you know, when I write, I often tell stories and I’ll showcase my vulnerability or mistakes or failures or cookouts that just brings people closer towards. 


Ashish Rajan: Low seeking our people. I definitely recommend people who are listening to this to follow your content on LinkedIn. 


Are there other people who you feel are doing a great job at this? 


Jane Frankland: The first person I could think of was it was a woman Magda, [00:42:00] Magda. Microtel is doing a great job. Some Magda is a genuinely great person. She’s she’s technical. She’s a doctor magnet. Shelly. I love Mike does work. She’s doing some little sound soundbite videos at the moment. 


So you weekly roundups of the news maker is based in Singapore. She’s Polish by, by origin, but she’s, she’s wonderful. She’s a really caring person. Her stuff is really good. She writes really well. Her videos are, are, you know, they’re fun. So I like, I like Mike does 


Ashish Rajan: this kind of move me to the next segment, which is the final segment. 


I call it the Unicon segment, just because I feel like everyone has got this special superpower, the mentoring program. Yeah, mentoring platform. What is it that drives? 


Jane Frankland: Well, it’s the book. So the book that I wrote, which is called insecurity, why a failure to attract and retain women in cyber security is making us all less safe that really hunters an accident. 


So library to block. Yeah, exactly. So I had, no, I had an intention to write a book, but not actually. It just [00:43:00] happened as an accident. So I wrote a blog. I then kind of did a report and then I thought, well, actually this report is 15,000 wide. Maybe I should turn it into a book and add more value and do interviews. 


And that’s just kind of how it happened and that’s exactly how it happened. But I, it really was a research project. So I had a lot of research to do. So interviews, you know, getting you data and things like that. Reading loads of reports, you know, and it’s kind of continued since, so I’m, I’m very passionate about this. 


I’ve very passionate about our industry and passionate by powering and inspiring people, particularly women, because I believe that they, you know, they, they, they do make us more safe and I believe that with more women in our environment, It’s great for men, you know, it’s more normal for everyone and we can, we can just have a, have a more fun time, a better time, and our work can, can improve. 


So for me, it’s an extension of that. So this mentoring, mentoring platform is an extension of that. It follows on from the book in the summer. Last year, I made a decision just to do it for women because. Really feel instinctively that we need to have a safe space for [00:44:00] women who can come together and find mentors. 


So the mentoring platform will enable women to find mentors in line with the skills that they need or accountability, partners or buddies. And it also will have kind of training modules in it. So it will, it will have that, that facility weapon. You can learn new skills. You can be supported with that learning in a community where you feel safe, and this is a global community. 


And then also you can find, find your mentors as, as well. So it enables those, those three, three things ready and the meetups. So learning meetups and mentoring, 


Ashish Rajan: And I’m pretty sure a lot of female audience who would love to go that 


Jane Frankland: I’m so excited about this because it does follow on from that work to really help solve this problem. 


Pairing, building that resilience and helping women to feel more inspired and strong and resilient and confident and equip them with the school so that we skill so that we can go out and we can [00:45:00] actually stay in our environments and country. 


Ashish Rajan: Final segment, which is fun questions. So the first one I’ve only got three conditions, so it’s not too many. 


Where do you spend most time on when you’re not working on cybersecurity? It’s 


Jane Frankland: probably dog-walking walking, so I live in the countryside. So I’m yeah. It’s yeah, my children, my friends and my animals, you know, that’s that’s, that’s my, 


Ashish Rajan: the next question. What is something that you are proud of? It’s not on your social media, my 


Jane Frankland: greatest pride in my children and they are on my social media from, 


Ashish Rajan: that’s a funny question though. 


What’s your favorite cuisine or restaurant that you can share with? I love 


Jane Frankland: food, so I would eat Mediterranean food every single day. That would be my natural diet of choice, but I also love Thai food. So it’s that’s I think Thai Thai food is probably my favorite. But I would choose to just have a Mediterranean diet every single day. 


And. By the Christ and the mountain. 


Ashish Rajan: That’s a great way to, for me to end the podcast as well, really appreciate time. Where can audience reach out to you if you have any followup questions on our mentoring programs? I think you mentioned your personal, personal branding program of course, as well. 


Jane Frankland: Yeah. [00:46:00] So on social media, probably the best place is LinkedIn. 


So I just keep it really simple. It’s my name? So Jane Franklin. I’m on Twitter. Twitter is also a good place. And then I’ve got my, my website Jane Jane dash, Frank franklin.com. But what I would also say is if I don’t respond, please don’t take it personally. Just like back to me, I have a lot of people. 


Messaging me all over the place. So it could be in comments and blogs in email, direct messaging and things like that. So I have to, I, I answer every single one pass if I don’t reply. Yeah. If I do ask 


Ashish Rajan: again, that sounds like a good plan. Ask again. Follow-ups is a great thing from a networking perspective as well. 


So there you go, ending on a golden nugget 


Jane Frankland: as well, and it’s a top tip anyway for not just dealing with me, but for dealing with anyone. And, and it was also see. C Y C Y the person you’re trying to connect with is, is active. Look for those signals and those marks, because safe for me, sometimes I can be more responsive on Twitter because it’s a faster platform than say on LinkedIn. 


So, 


Ashish Rajan: [00:47:00] thank you again for your time. Really appreciate it. I’m looking forward to talking to you again, and the mentoring program goes live. Thanks again for your time. Thank you.

‍