Mike Privette: [00:00:00] Yeah. So there are at least 4000 or 5000 cybersecurity product companies around the world. I also think data loss prevention is going to be real for once. Yeah. A lot of companies have to pivot because they realize like one segment is getting a lot more money and a lot more attention than others.

So you see this kind of like constant cat and mouse game in the industry of how do you position yourself best for investors and for buyers?

Ashish Rajan: Welcome to another episode of Cloud Security Podcast. Today I have Mike Privet. Thanks for coming to the show, man. I really appreciate you coming over. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Maybe just to set some context for the scene for people, could you tell us a bit about yourself and the work you do?

Mike Privette: Yeah. So my name is Mike Privette. I run Return on Security. It's a cybersecurity research firm really focused on the economics of the cybersecurity market. And so I just try to capture all the puts and takes of work, where the money goes in our space, and then try to track trends.

And then I enjoy writing about that kind of stuff and seeing like what anomalies pop out.

Ashish Rajan: What made you start this and I guess the theme of the episode is to go into what's in 2025 and moving forward. But what got you started on Return on Security?

Mike Privette: To be honest, I started [00:01:00] just because I couldn't find what I was looking for myself.

Or I couldn't find one single source. When I was a head of security engineering at a company and through my time like in security, I had a hard time keeping up with startups. And who was innovating? Who was coming up on the scene? Who was doing something new that maybe that could replace an incumbent vendor with, like a bigger vendor?

And I just could not find a good resource of that. So I just started doing a bunch of searching and writing it down myself, collecting it. And out of that came these should have categories. These should have descriptions. I should do some sort of tagging. And then that evolved and maybe I should share this.

And the very first issue was like a tweet and it was like one and I'll do it again. And I got two likes, so I'm like, so it just evolved from there and to turn to a much bigger thing than I could have planned, but it's been great.

Ashish Rajan: So how big is the cyber security industry landscape?

Mike Privette: Yeah, so there are at least 4, 000 or 5, 000 cyber security product companies around the world. If you count them all, if you count services businesses, which actually makes up like even more of a magnitude than product companies. It's probably double that. That's because there's very little threshold [00:02:00] to starting a service business that focuses on cyber in some way, the amount of money that goes around, even just like the available publicly is, the past last year was almost 13 billion.

This year is going to be similar. It's just a massive amount of money involved in that space. But within that you find it several dozen domains, possibly 50 to 100 different categories of delineation of how different vendors do things. So it's very wide and very deep because, cyber spans all of tech.

And so it like, it touches everything

Ashish Rajan: Being that broad 5, 000 plus cyber security company. What are some of the common areas? Because they won't work in everything. I imagine but not every part of cybersecurity or tech would have money.

Mike Privette: True Yeah, it's true And everyone thinks about the large public cyber companies like that have the many different product suites so they might cover network cloud mobile and endpoints Yeah, one of these like more established public companies, but most aren't doing that most are still focusing on, a lot of focus on cloud security, a lot of focus on application security, and it goes in flavor with what's the technology trend of either the decade or the year?

[00:03:00] Obviously AI has been huge these past couple years, so there's been a lot of money flowing into that. But then it's always coming in variations of different segments. So whereas something like endpoint detection and response maybe hasn't been really touched for the the past 10 years. Like it's very little in that space.

So the industry does have flavors and like focus points based on like where general tech is heading.

Ashish Rajan: All right, and I guess maybe that's also an indicator of where the industry is going as well. I guess as a CISO or someone who's a director trying to figure out different products to what you said, putting back in your shoes before you started Return on Security.

That's an indicator also because you're able to, I guess if it's a budget card, you're able to see at a cheaper player, but also at the same time, if you are not getting what you want from the quote unquote best of breed, you're able to at least find an alternative which solves your problem as well.

Mike Privette: Yeah. And it also just helps you think about future planning, like roadmap and what capabilities do I have today? What do I want? What do I wish I had? And it helps you look externally and say what can I either roll up? What can I focus on? What can I expand on? Yeah. And that's really how the [00:04:00] industry builds like how it how it plans things out, that's how organizations plan out their like technology roadmap is saying like what's possible.

Yeah. And build it from there. So if you're a good steward of capital and you're a good kind of leader in that space and trying to get like the most value for the most amount of money. That's something you think about and that's what I always thought about.

I was like, running security engineering teams, like I have a obviously security job to do, but I also have fiduciary responsibility to the company to make sure I'm maximizing the value in all ways. And I found a lot more security leaders are thinking like that or have been thinking like that because you have to put a business context on, so much of what you do in cyber to seeing this, not just like a tech person.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah. That space. And I love how, I guess security leadership is a balance of being secure while being under budget as well. Yeah. . So without overspending your budget, no one has a million dollars always to spend on security budget as well. Maybe before we look into 2025, in 2024, what has been some of the industries that are stood out for you that you're like, either surprised you or were broad indicators?

Cause this is and maybe talking [00:05:00] from a market perspective, this is also the year that the elections happened in the us Yep. There's also a lot of change in leadership, from a political perspective, there's a lot of change in leadership as well. And I imagine that affects the market, which means that affects the people consumption and all of that as well.

What was in the cyber security space that you saw was some of the trends you noticed in 2024?

Mike Privette: Yeah, I'd say one that surprised me a lot was just how much threat intelligence was banked on. Oh. Like there was a couple of large acquisitions with threat intelligence companies and that's something that there are probably more threat intelligence companies, broadly speaking, than there are any other product category in cyber.

Oh, because it's such a, generic bucket of topics. What is threat intelligence? Is it dark web? Is it Social media. Social media. Is it deepfake? It's there's all these signals that can make up what is threat intelligence. But there was like a renewed interest in that and that could be like a leading indicator of do people believe a lot more misinformation is happening?

Do they need better quality information sources? Is that like a new way to aggregate data, which could lead into what the next trends might be in 2025? And so I thought that was pretty interesting. Cause [00:06:00] that's one that, where there's a lot of large players who've done very well at the threat intelligence space for a long time.

Ashish Rajan: Because most of the publicly listed companies are in that space as well.

Mike Privette: There's a lot of them, yeah.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah, so most of them, actually, yeah. Because, wait, to your point, is that because, A, and I'm going to go, that goes back to why we have Cloud Security Podcast and Return on Security, because eventually there's only so much one individual or a team can look up all the threats that are relevant for them on the internet and keep an eye on them and at the same time take action on them every day as well.

Mike Privette: Exactly, yeah. So you need a way to funnel that, to like channel that more directly. And I think that's a big piece of it as well. And then there was, this year also there's a huge amount of like change and shifts around application security and what that means. And so not even on the code side, but more on the runtime side, like in the cloud, actually running production apps.

So a lot of shakeups and like kind of investments in that space more so than I would, I think of a lot of people were surprised at how quickly that category kind of churned and morphed over the year. And so I think that'll continue to consolidate rapidly and startups keep coming in.

Ashish Rajan: AI obviously was huge quite a bit in 2024. Was there [00:07:00] anything in that space or in that technology space that was standing out for you?

Mike Privette: Yeah. So there was the kind of traditional playbook, what we saw in 2023 of where a lot of companies hit that first AI for security use case of SecOps agents or like supporting your SecOps workflows, which is a great place to start because that's obviously one of the hardest areas of security, the most time intensive, the most people intensive resource kind of thing to do. And also the most amount of data. So it's made sense. And that's something that AI can help with. So there was more of those this year. But then it started to become more of a narrowing of let's get really specific use cases on let's secure a AI chatbot, for example, so like a much more narrow use case.

And I think that's a peek behind the curtain of what we'll next year is a lot more targeted use cases, not just broad AI SOC use cases. Like they don't, the market can only support so many of those before one or two are named the top and then everyone else just has to pivot.

Ashish Rajan: All right. How long have you been tracking companies for now?

Mike Privette: About three and a half years, but I have data going back to 2018 and beyond and I'm always tracking backwards so I can see [00:08:00] what economic kind of trends happen over a certain like given period of time and like what else is happening in the world during that time too.

Were interest rates high? Were they low? Interesting. What else was happening?

Ashish Rajan: What are some of the things that you feel would be big movers in 2025?

Mike Privette: One I think that has a lot of potential is actually AI helping like GRC functions. And I don't mean like the compliance automation platforms that are like pulling things from your client.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah, okay.

Mike Privette: But I mean the running of a GRC program. So like the running of your policies, the running of your vendor management, the running of your like kind of relationship management third party thing. I think there's a lot that could go from there, especially as we move towards more agentic AI.

Yeah. Go do this task, go evaluate this offender, go tell me a score of this based on their feedback from a questionnaire or other sources, go scrape public sources. So I think that could be a really interesting area for GRC in general. That'll go beyond what we have now with like compliance automation tools where they constantly check control status. Like I think those are needed.

I think those won't ever go away. But I think we [00:09:00] can do a lot more GRC because most of it is like tech space. It's human base So yeah, it requires a bit of like nuance that I think you could do some narrow training I think that'd be a really interesting trend that's going to happen.

I also think data loss prevention is going to be real for once. Yeah, I would say, I think it's it's largely been like a failed product for like in the industry, like it, yes, it works. It's very much a hammer when you needed like a scalpel. It's always like a poor experience because you can't tell the difference between sometimes it's been like, a document number or a social security number.

And so it has this use cases. It has its benefits, but now. Yeah. I think AI will be able to actually make it a lot more specific and say, now I want a fine tune series of agents or models that can say this or a document that looks like this is actually intellectual property. And that's a very broad term, but you can get a lot closer to defining what that is because if you think about the value trade off of the cost of a breach social security number versus the cost of a leaked M and A document for a competitor.

They're not really comparable. Like [00:10:00] one has a finite dollar, one has an uncapped dollar amount. And like the M and A one would be a lot harder to, you can't reign that back in. You can't give somebody, breach monitoring service. To make it okay. So I think there's a lot more that will come out of that.

And the whole data loss space. And I guess

Ashish Rajan: is that the AI wave supporting cause I guess to, to put some context as well. Most of the DLP solutions are primarily in the email space as well.

Mike Privette: Yeah, email or some like some end point stuff. So you can't like paste stuff from in a browser.

Yeah. Yeah. Some network, but yeah, it's mostly email.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah. But not to the point that AI requires it where it's in a database. You gave me something. I left the company, but I still have saved my laptop, which is now with someone else.

Yeah. Data sprawl is a real thing as well. Most of my feed seems to be primarily around that cloud security and data security spaces because of what the two coming in. I'm curious. We covered data security from a cloud security perspective. What are you seeing there?

Mike Privette: Yeah. I say, I think the real thing is like cloud security and AppSec becoming like one.

I think that's if you look at just like the spree of acquisitions and like how people went from the posture [00:11:00] management education of cloud to then let's start doing some like agentless scanning of the cloud to actually let's go to running an agent on the host to do a fine grained like cloud security and app security kind of controls.

I think all of those things are going to become much more unified in like some of the large announcements from the big players and some of the large acquisitions or like speaking to that already, because one, you need the context, like you need the end to end context.

Even something as simple as saying like there's a, open S3 bucket without authentication. Fixing that is not just necessarily a flip of a switch, right? You need to involve app teams, need to involve business teams, need to involve cloud and infrastructure teams. So that's how you you have to work through that.

So I think the evolution of those two are going to have to come together. So people go a lot faster. So context is already there. And so you can say Hey this exposability or this issue is an issue. Like it's not perceived in this one part of the infrastructure like this affects like our app.

Yeah business Yeah, that makes its money. So I think that'll definitely become more and more conjoined I would say and that too with a lot of the marketing efforts that have gone on [00:12:00] You're getting very creative in a bunch of new categories, which I know are can be overwhelming

Ashish Rajan: I wonder if it's going to be instead of the roles combining it's more of the You Hey, if you are an app sec person, I'm a cloud security person.

We'll work on the same product.

Mike Privette: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I don't think the roles are combined because they're definitely two separate sets of like specialties. It's definitely skill sets, but I think, yeah, they'll have to work closer to figure out what are the implications of making this app change or this cloud change.

And I think tools can like help bridge that and especially if you don't have the deep expertise in both company, which, a lot of companies don't.

Ashish Rajan: And I get to your point because if most of the applications are going to be in cloud, even with AI, I guess probably cloud kind of infrastructure is more favorable for AI build workload.

Mike Privette: So yeah.

Ashish Rajan: It probably makes sense for security people to look at it holistically. Maybe GRC comes in as well tomorrow?

Mike Privette: Yeah and then AI, the demand for that is driving additional cloud consumption. So additional cloud consumption means additional cloud security consumption, additional application development and all these things, like it all flows from like the large rising tide of AI, like just pushing that.

And if [00:13:00] you look at the large public companies like the big cloud providers, They're making tons of money on AI and compute. And that's why everyone's rushing to get more business case. Cause like you have to remember that people are using the tech to make money as a business.

That's right. Yeah. So they'll do anything to find the thing that makes the money as a business, because that's the whole goal.

Ashish Rajan: But I guess your point that's why there's a mad rush to become the player for AI cloud computing. Yeah. Ah, interesting. And actually cause I imagine most people inside not most people, some people in cybersecurity also want to start their own company as well.

And obviously looking at the trend of the market for where it's acquisition going on, where Things that seem to be combined. I look at it from a perspective of, oh, this is how the lay of the land is at the moment for cybersecurity industry. This is where the world is going. If someone was to use indicators on your newsletter as, hey, if the industry seems to be investing a lot more on ASPM, the category, I'm just going to throw that word in there, ASPM category, does that mean someone who is listening or watching to this and wants to start their own startup?

They could use those trends to make a call for because you've been doing it long [00:14:00] enough that you can see Oh, okay that it's when the smaller players start saying something suddenly the bigger players start saying similar things as well. Yeah, exactly So are those indicators for hey if someone's out there wanted to start a startup They could probably look at these indicators for where the money is is that a good way to look at this as well?

Mike Privette: Yeah, that's a great way to look at it too. Like you can look and see like basically where the money has been sent to know, okay, this problem space is generally gaining traction. Like it's getting enough momentum. That's something worth investing in. I will say it's an interesting double edged sword though, too, because usually by the time you hear about it publicly, you're already very far behind development.

Cause a lot of these companies are like, in stealth for a year or two years and they have early stage like investments.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah.

Mike Privette: And so like they've already well positioned a problem space, but our industry changes so quickly that just because there's money in one space a day, it doesn't mean that the money won't go to the next space.

It's like slightly different.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Privette: But you can take broad trends and say like, all right, there's probably something in the application security space left to go in on. Our industry is really interesting too, because like it's, the prospects of going like the traditional company of going [00:15:00] IPO and having a big public offering has gone less and less over the years. And so what has happened instead is like companies have become very good at becoming acquired, become like really good. Like we can fit a really good niche of a market here that it has a real problem. Also can make a lot of money. Also will be acquired by a large player who doesn't have this capability.

So they become almost made almost machines for doing that. Wow. So yeah, you can see that happening. And you were like, that's a good indicator to like, don't get in that one because the market's going to be gone before you can even get something off the ground. Interesting. It's, I mean it's a challenging industry, I would say.

So kudos to all the people who do take the risk and actually make something. Because the industry wouldn't be as far as it is without these people doing it. Yeah. But it's very hard.

Ashish Rajan: But also, it's cut throat enough that people have specialized enough to the point that oh this is super narrow niche.

If I can just nail that one, I'm pretty sure I'll be primed to be acquired by someone.

Mike Privette: Yes. Yeah. And you can see a lot of, especially like certain parts of the world, like they're very good at predicting, all right, this is the next wave. And [00:16:00] here are five companies that are doing it and they'll be released in the next year.

And three of them might get acquired. And so it's like they've figured out how to, manufacture it.

Ashish Rajan: Ah, interesting. One of the reasons I asked the question about the startups also is that a lot of startups may start by saying something and then you go, Oh, I would not be bought by a bigger player if I don't go into that.

Do you see there's like a change in where they start and where they go as well?

Mike Privette: Yeah, there is often a lot, like not every category does that, but like I've started tracking what I call like category drift where I can say Oh you may have started off in like attack surface management, but that has gone down in favor.

And so now cyber threat exposure management has gone up in favor or continuous threat exposure management. So now we're not ASM, we're actually CTEM. So they'll change the marketing very quickly, probably maybe the exactly same, maybe with some additional kind of nuances. But yeah, a lot of companies have to pivot because they realize like one segment's getting a lot more money and a lot more attention than others.

So you see this kind of like constant cat and mouse game in the industry of how do you position yourself best for investors and for buyers? And so there's [00:17:00] always that game of what's the flavor. And then you add in analyst firms who then often will create categories exists.

And so acronyms. Yeah. Which is, I know the bane for a lot of people that yet another acronym. Yeah. But it's like something you have to pay attention to because if you don't , it's hard to compare them. So that was like a general thesis of what I started Return on Security.

I wanted to be able to simply explain what they did for a practitioner like myself to compare almost apples to apples. Yeah. You say you're this, you sound a lot like this other company, but yet you have different marketing and different categories but you're probably like close enough to compare.

And so like now I've started tracking it. Cause I've noticed that some categories more than others, change a bunch.

Ashish Rajan: I love the comparison of the cat and mouse game as well. Do you find that most people are to be attracted to buyers and investors, as you said? Is the field changing constantly enough that it doesn't allow for more newer players to come in?

Or do you still see new players coming in, raising seed rounds and all that?

Mike Privette: Yeah, no, there's still a bunch of new players. Like even over the past couple of years, even with the downturn in 2022, there were still a lot [00:18:00] of early stage. What struggled was the later and mid stage companies who had already taken a lot of money previously and then were needed to wait it out.

But there was always new and like the industry is always it's an interesting phenomenon cause people talk about consolidation and all these things, but like that happens, but there's always new coming up. Like no matter what you squeeze, there's always like a normal distribution of like new and old and like popping out and that will never change.

Cause that's like the entire nature of our industry. Like innovation is what drives all of it. So it's there's been a bunch of early stage investment this year too. There's been also return of a mid stage investment. So that's like another healthy sign of the industry that like this company survived though that tranche that they had maybe a couple of years ago.

And now. They've made it. They're back again. And so now those companies will start growing and acquiring and doing all kinds of cool stuff. So I always equate it to like an accordion. So like you squeeze the top and like it consolidates it, but then at the bottom it's open and startups come out.

And so it's like a, it's like an undulating thing.

Ashish Rajan: So what is a healthy industry then according to you? Because to your point, obviously you're looking at from a 10, 000 feet view. [00:19:00] What's a good indicator for that day? Oh, I guess I saw a tweet about we are back. Yeah. Yeah. How do you define considering you've been tracking the industry for some time?

How do you define that as someone else who may be trying to visualize something similar? What's a healthy industry then?

Mike Privette: Healthy industry is one that I think like you can see the full life cycle. Companies come through do something brand new, raise money, gather some market share and then live long enough to be acquired or go IPO.

Yeah. We're like, even in the later stage, companies continuing to innovate and like they're acquiring companies because they can't innovate as fast but they're consolidating like their kind of specialties and then healthy talks about like actually going public and you go, yeah, that's a pretty like good flow of an industry and one that just has a bunch of new entrants that don't just die out because security is, it's not a winner take all.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah,

Mike Privette: market. So like it is very reasonable for, 10 plus players in one category to survive and like still be good businesses. And so you can see that coming through. So I think during 2022, everyone had the crunch and everything went very [00:20:00] tight and slowed down. But then like you see it ramped back up again in 2023 and 2024.

It's going to be better than 2023. And so it's, you can tell like there's a healthy rebound along with the rest of the economy,

Ashish Rajan: I think it'd be really interesting to see the category shift you have, where they start with one messaging, they've acquired a company, but that never appears in the messaging ever again because either the product dies away and they're obviously there over time, they've been a lot of AppSec players who tried getting into cloud security or the other way around as well, but suddenly they stopped talking about the other part.

Yeah. That'll be interesting to see as well.

Mike Privette: Yeah. And that does happen too. Cause not every acquisition is like a good outcome. Yeah. People, I think people are getting excited about it. Oh, somebody probably made a lot of money, but that's not always the case. And cause if it is the case they usually say it up front Oh, we huge exit.

This is incredible. Returned a bunch of money to the shareholders or to the investors

Ashish Rajan: Oh they call it out normally.

Mike Privette: Yeah. Typically it's like a look at us which is no harm, no foul there. But yeah not all of them are as what they seem on the surface. Some of them are just pure Hey, I like your team.

I want to acquire your team. Some of them like, [00:21:00] Hey, I want to take you out of competition. Sit you on the side. Yeah. Maybe I like your IP, but I don't like anything else. Or I want your customers and nothing else. Yeah. You have a good contract and I don't. And so I like that. And so that's just normal business kind of flow and it's definitely not unique to cyber, but it doesn't always mean it's like a great outcome for everybody but like the more kind of like success stories you can hear.

And I think the better the industry is. Yeah.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah. I'll look forward to the category shift and thing that you're going to include in your newsletter as well. I think it'll be interesting to see, because obviously to your point, people forget after a while, like they would see a acquisition happens and then a few months later, but I guess we are in that space where the new news just keeps coming out more and more.

You hear about one acquisition, another acquisition. You forget the fact that the first acquisition you heard of, no one's ever spoken about it after that. They just disappeared. Yes. And I think one of the interviews that I'm watching for one of the publicly listed cybersecurity companies.

He was on, I think, all in podcasts or something. And he was talking about the whole, they acquired companies, but one of the biggest, that's how you expand into other [00:22:00] markets as well. Cause you clearly are not able to expand into it yourself, which is why you're acquiring companies. And his thing was interesting where even they've had bad acquisitions.

Mike Privette: Yeah.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah. Every, at every level, no matter how much money you have, you still made bad acquisitions.

Mike Privette: Yeah. Some things just won't go. Like that's the nature of business though too. I've worked on a couple acquisitions outside of cyber, like when I was, at different companies and they were always train wrecks.

Yeah. Yeah. All these poor experience for everybody involved. Yeah. And then a year later, nobody remembers and let's move on. The nature of the industry.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah, awesome. Those are most of the, forward thinking questions. I have three fun questions for you.

Okay. All right. First one being, what do you spend most time on when you're not working on Return on Security?

Mike Privette: Probably hanging out with the kids, mostly, and then the gym. I enjoy doing that. That's like my way to stay focused and like mental release kind of thing.

Ashish Rajan: So oh, yeah I about a crossfit still or no.

Mike Privette: No, I just felt like I just do my own stuff. But yeah, mostly just I like to mix up a bunch of different odd lifts and strongman stuff, whatever I can whatever is fun.

Ashish Rajan: Second question [00:23:00] What is something that you're proud of that is not on your social media?

Mike Privette: I'm proud of my beard. Oh, yeah.

Ashish Rajan: It's not only social media

Mike Privette: It's there, but no, I'm proud that we decided as a family to move It's give an adventure a try.

I moved to the UK. Yes, that was a scary thing to do, but it was a fun thing to do and I'm probably like had the courage to do it.

Ashish Rajan: Yeah, moving country is definitely not easy. No. Yeah, and you're doing it with your family as well completely. So yeah, definitely something to be proud of as well.

Final question. What is your favorite cuisine or restaurant that you can share with us?

Mike Privette: I love any Asian food. But I have to say Thai food is probably my

Ashish Rajan: favorite.

Anything in particular in Thai food?

Mike Privette: I'm a big fan of drunken noodle style, like spicy noodles.

Ashish Rajan: Oh, nice.

Mike Privette: I love those. I've never met a curry I didn't like.

Those are always great. Yeah, and I'm lucky that, the UK has so many good pubs with good Thai food. So that's always been nice. But if I could eat that, if I eat nothing else, that would be it.

Ashish Rajan: Oh, I think, yeah, because one of the questions I've been asking people is if you're stuck in an island and this was, that you only had one meal or cuisine you could go for, what would that be?

Mike Privette: Thai food for sure. Thai food for sure. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Oh, fair. Okay. That was a good one. Where can people find more [00:24:00] information about Return on Security and about yourself to connect and follow and all of that? returnonsecurity.com. That's where my newsletter and blog is. You can find it there. I'm also on LinkedIn, just as Mike Privette, and on Twitter and oh, and Blue Sky now.

Ashish Rajan: Oh!

Mike Privette: Yeah.

Ashish Rajan: You're one of those.

Mike Privette: Yeah. Oh my god. Just figuring it out. Yeah.

Ashish Rajan: Do you think Blue Sky is going to be a thing?

Mike Privette: I don't know. I'm just it doesn't take much to copy pastes. So I'm just trying it out.

Ashish Rajan: Fair. Okay. Fair. But now dude, thanks so much for coming in. I appreciate that.

Thanks for joining. We'll see you soon. Thank you for listening or watching this episode of Cloud Security Podcast. We have been running for the past five years, so I'm sure we haven't covered everything cloud security yet. And if there's a particular cloud security topic that we can go for you in an interview format on Cloud Security Podcast or make a training video on tutorials on cloud security bootcamp, definitely reach out to us on info@cloudsecuritypodcast.tv by the way, if you're interested in AI and cybersecurity, as many cybersecurity leaders are, you might be interested in our sister AI Cybersecurity Podcast, which I run with former CSO of Robinhood, Caleb Sima, where we talk about everything AI and cybersecurity. How can [00:25:00] organizations deal with cybersecurity on AI systems, AI platforms, whatever AI has to bring next as an evolution of chat, GPT, and everything else continues.

If you have any other suggestions, definitely drop them on info@cloudsecuritypodcast.tv. I'll drop them in the description and the show notes as well. So you can reach out to us easily. Otherwise, I will see you in the next episode. Peace.

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